Church Ground Becomes the Lining Up with a Man and a Ministry

[UntoHim]

Sorry for disagreeing...I'll have to double check the Forum rules, but I don't think there is a rule against disagreeing (or even constantly disagreeing!). Besides, Steve is used to me disagreeing with him, especially when he makes such bold and dubious statements such as "It was a move for Christ and the church, not for a man and a ministry". Actually we both agree that the "Church Ground Becomes the Lining Up with a Man and a Ministry" (Thread title), we only disagree on when this took place. I would contend that there is ample evidence that this dynamic had already taken place in Taiwan long before Witness Lee ever graced our shores with "the glorious church life". In hindsight, I think it is quite clear now that Lee only gave us gullible Americans a short reprieve until he gained enough trust and power to replicate what he had already tried in Taiwan. (interestingly enough, he did the same, but in reverse, with the "New Way")

OBW puts this rather succinctly just a few posts back:

Originally Posted by OBW

I think, though, that you captured the truth of the whole when you mention that the "turning over" had already happened in China in the late 40s to early 50s, then in Taiwan. It was after both of those that Lee came to America, allowing a less obviously flawed basis for meeting to capture us before doing it all over again in the 80s.

Ohio, shall I just chalk up your "search for a serpent in every paradise" blast as you getting out of the wrong side of bed, and not really a not-so-subtle ad hominem? (and that IS against the rules ) It is rather ironic, however, that you mention "a serpent in every paradise"...because I think it has been shown on this very forum that the serpent of "the church ground lining up with a man and a ministry" was there in the paradise of "the glorious church life" from the very beginnings of the Local Church here in America. This is NOT to discount, much less deny, the genuine experiences of Christ that we had back in the day. I would, however, question whether or not it was in spite of, and not because of, a certain man and a certain ministry.

Before coming into the Local Church of Witness Lee, I found myself in the mist of the new and exciting Calvary Chapel movement. I lived less than a mile from where it all began in Costa Mesa, and pumped gas in and washed Pastor Chuck Smith's car (a beautiful Pontiac Catalina convertable IIRC). I had genuine experiences of Christ and witnessed many great miracles, such as kids being freed from hard drugs and genuine physical healings. Even though I was young and dumb, I still believe those were genuine experiences of Christ and what "the Church" is all about. Did the Calvary Chapel movement become more about a man and a ministry than the genuine expression of Christ and the Church? I think to a great degree it did. Maybe there are Internet forums out there for current and former CC members, and that would be something for them to discuss I'm sure. I was only there for a couple of years in my teens, so would have to rely upon the experiences and intimate knowledge of current and former CC members.

By the mid 70s I found myself right at ground zero among the Local Churches in Orange County. We were going to Ministry Station meetings, major holiday conferences and semi-annual trainings to be at Witness Lee's feet. We were up to our ears in a man and a ministry. When other brothers and sisters came to Anaheim for the conferences and trainings I found them to be up to their ears in a man and a ministry as well. Who's name was on ALL the books and tapes? Who was "the trainer" at the trainings? What was the content of EVERY conference, even the ones where there were different speakers? Was it not the words of the same man and the same ministry? I cannot speak to the very earliest days in Los Angeles in the early 60s, but by the late 60s the Local Church movement was already all about a man and a ministry.